Rest In Peace...

[Scarlet_Salome]

What about a hypothetical 'We Need to talk about Kevin' scenario? Unrelated to the Saville thing, would it not theoretically be possible for a teenage girl to be a homicidal sociopath and an older man to be completely innocent? Arguably more likely to happen the other way round, but not impossible. And I have known at least one girl (not myself) who on a number of occasions got boys drunk/on drugs and took advantage of them to the fullest extent. And both her and the boys were underage at the time, so the question of age was irrelevant.  I remember how sorry me and my friends felt for the guys, having to perform such an act with the girl in question (seriously, she wasn't much to look at and her personality did nothing to redeem her).

 I am not condoning anything, nor excusing anything. As I said, all situations and people are different and each situation must be judged on its own specific circumstances, attributes and aspects. Snap judgments must not be made on quick and immediate stereotypes alone.

[oldspice]

What about a hypothetical 'We Need to talk about Kevin' scenario? Unrelated to the Saville thing, would it not theoretically be possible for a teenage girl to be a homicidal sociopath and an older man to be completely innocent? Arguably more likely to happen the other way round, but not impossible. And I have known at least one girl (not myself) who on a number of occasions got boys drunk/on drugs and took advantage of them to the fullest extent. And both her and the boys were underage at the time, so the question of age was irrelevant.  I remember how sorry me and my friends felt for the guys, having to perform such an act with the girl in question (seriously, she wasn't much to look at and her personality did nothing to redeem her).

 I am not condoning anything, nor excusing anything. As I said, all situations and people are different and each situation must be judged on its own specific circumstances, attributes and aspects. Snap judgments must not be made on quick and immediate stereotypes alone.

OK, what about this hypothetical situation.

It's 1976 and a 14 year old girl goes to see her pop idols in concert with a group of friends. With a bit of flirting, she persuades a doorman to get her and a mate backstage after the show to meet their idols. They can't beleive their luck when they are invited back to the idols' hotel.

Back at the hotel, the 14 year old 'gets off' (as they used to say) with her idol. They kiss and cuddle and she believes she's falling completely in love. She consents to sex and they 'make love' (in her words).  Afterwards, her idol tells her 'wait there love, i won't be long' He returns with the doorman who got them a back stage pass. The doorman strips off. 'What's going on?' asks the girl. 'Come on love' her idol says 'you've got to be nice to the man who allowed us to meet'. The girl is horrified 'no way!' cries. 'Please darling, be nice to him for me.' and he leaves the gril alone with the doorman who gets his way. Later, her idol returns and 'makes love' to her again. He then reunites her with her friend who has had sex with another member of the band and a roadie under similar circumstances. 

The girls are taken home by taxi. They are quiet. They are both upset. Weeks later, they talk to each other about their horrible experience and vow to keep quiet. They feel dirty and ashamed.

In another town, the process is repeated with a dozen more girls.  The 'idols' laugh together about all 'candy' they are getting. One of the roadies, a slightly older man, expresses concern. 'You want to be careful lads. You're going to get yourselves into trouble. Some of these girls are just little kids'

'Give over mate!' says one of the idols. 'They're gagging for it!'

[ayrshirechocman]

Oldspice:

Thank you for your reply. It was polite and intelligent, unlike the childish vitriol I had to suffer last night from another poster.

To give you my background, I spent three years working for the CICA in Glasgow. A job which involved dealing with the victims of rape and sexual abuse. Mostly female, some adult and some teenagers and even children. Conversely, I dealt with boys and men who had been the victims of false rape and abuse claims. 'Thankfully', most of my caseload was robbery, assault, burglary, unpleasant crimes, but the rape and abuse (or false claims) were the worst and most depressing. I had to meet the people as well as wade through all the police and court and social service evidence, not a nice job at times. So I have dealt with the real victims of rape and abuse and the horrible effects of it, but also I have seen how women, teenage girls and even children can lie and ruin a man's or a boy's life. So perhaps thats why I maintain a central position on issues like this. 

Does anyone think a man of this age should be slobbering over teenage girls, even if they threw themselves naked at his feet?  Does anyone think it is normal for men in their 20s/30s/40s or older to enjoy sex with teenagers?

No. As a red blooded male, I can understand why he would be attracted to lovely young ladies, but as an older man, he should walk away. Its called self-control.

I used to know a 40 year old who actively chased 16/17 year olds (as a handsome man, he was actually quite successful). But myself and others who worked with him, mostly men, thought he was sad and out of order.

As to is it normal, men will always look at beautiful young girls. Its nature. But thats where it should stop. Look, fantasise in your head, but leave young girls for young men. Being crude, older men should go home and have a w*nk and leave the girls to enjoy being teenagers and falling in love and lust with boys their own age.

I am 42. If I see a gorgeous young girl, I look. I cant help it, as a hetero male, I will look at any attractive girl or woman. BUT I would never, ever even think of actually trying to chat them up, let alone bed them. BECAUSE I am 42. And they are not. They are 16 or 17 or 18. To me, they are like a pretty flower: you look at it and then you walk on. You dont walk into the garden and tear up the roses and steal them.

(at this point, you will grasp that I am not good with metaphors.....lol)

[oldspice]

Hi ayrshirechocman,

Thanks for explaining your position. It helps us to see there are different types of victims in these cases.

In a post earlier today, I described a scenario in which a very young girl consents to sex, and then gets carried into a situation that she certainly did not invite, but it occurred because the men involved decided that if she was 'up for it' with one man (a man she believed she loved) she must therefore be 'up for it' for all. When she showed obvious hesitation and horror, the men just went ahead anyway, believing that because she has consented to sex with one man at such a young age, she is therefore 'game'.  It shows how young people can get involved way above their heads because they do not have the capacity to think things through. They are trusting and willing and vulnerable because of their age.

Yes, lives certainly can be ruined by false allegations and as a teacher, I am all too aware of this.

Don't be too hard on WJP. His outburst was out of character and I happen to know that he has a much treasured small daughter and that makes him very protective.

Thanks again for your contribution.

[wjp666]

you said it all, Spicy - bravo! so i shall leave you to deal with these 'people' ;-) with your ultimate weapon of common sense. i for one am a little bored at having to state the bleedin' obvious that - celebrity or average joe, consenting or not, groupie or school-kid, 60's or 00's - SCREWING KIDS IS MORALLY WRONG AND, AHEM, ILLEGAL! it's really that simple. it's red-tape seeking people trying to find exceptions to this simple logic who make a farce out of the law and society in general. i'm not willing to state at this time why my pitchfork is so firmly in my hand on this subject, but i will say that there have been some comments in this thread that have left me feeling a little sick, but i guess they were meant to. what can i say, i'm a black/white kinda guy, not really into the shades of grey mentality. simple rules for simple times, not complicated technicalities with streets full of marauding perverts. anyways, peace, love, empathy - triple-6 out.

[Scarlet_Salome]

All that I ask is that the issue not descend into misandry or blatant stereotyping. The boys were I mentioned earlier were completely unwilling and, were the genders reversed, this would be deemed rape. Similarly, just because a person is a female or young (13-14) and thus 'innocent' 'pretty flowers', they view sex as 'making love' or whatever. There is no reason why 13-14 year old girls cannot view 'band members', 'roadies' or any other person, male or female, as merely notches on a bedpost to make their way through and then brag and compare notes with their mates about it afterwards.  Some pretty flowers may wish to be torn up. To extend the metaphor, roses have thorns and foxgloves are deadly poison. What is it Lady Macbeth said? 'Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under't'? As ayrshirechocman says, a central position should be maintained and each situation and person dealt with in its/their own terms, without allowing age, race,  gender or any other stereotypes to influence.

[ayrshirechocman]

streets full of marauding perverts.

Good grief.
And you wonder why the govt was reticient to give the public access to information on sex offenders for fear of the pitchfork brigade.

[oldspice]

All that I ask is that the issue not descend into misandry or blatant stereotyping. The boys were I mentioned earlier were completely unwilling and, were the genders reversed, this would be deemed rape. Similarly, just because a person is a female or young (13-14) and thus 'innocent' 'pretty flowers', they view sex as 'making love' or whatever. There is no reason why 13-14 year old girls cannot view 'band members', 'roadies' or any other person, male or female, as merely notches on a bedpost to make their way through and then brag and compare notes with their mates about it afterwards.  Some pretty flowers may wish to be torn up. To extend the metaphor, roses have thorns and foxgloves are deadly poison. What is it Lady Macbeth said? 'Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under't'? As ayrshirechocman says, a central position should be maintained and each situation and person dealt with in its/their own terms, without allowing age, race,  gender or any other stereotypes to influence.

I can see the point you are making, but I still maintain that, even if these 13-14 year old girls are viewing band members as 'notches on the bed post' they are still worthy of protection from risky sexual activity with much older men/women.  With reference to the girl who, when still under age, got boys drunk/drugged up and took sexual advantage of them, this girl was also worthy of protection from her risky, dangerous and abusive beahviour and the boys in question were worthy of protection from her. Such behaviour often stems from low self esteem and inadequat parenting. 

[Scarlet_Salome]

Then I applaud your attitude. Your students must be very lucky to have one so sympathetic as their mentor. The teachers and adults I have come across have never viewed such behaviour as representative of one being 'worthy of protection', but rather either a hysterical attention seeker or simply an foolish little girl or idiot guttersnipe; and ultimately something to be brushed aside as completely irrelevant, as it has no relation to one's ability to complete fifty gazillion quadratic equations in ten minutes, conjugate Latin verbs or debate the finer points of the Stalinist revolution. As I said, I truly admire and respect your sympathetic attitude to students and young people.

[oldspice]

Thanks Scarlet, that's very nice of you.

Teaching is very different these days.  I actually teach in a Further Education college and most of my students are 16-19. I have also been involved in teacher training.

Many of my students come to college having 'failed' at school. Most of them are bright, intelligent young people who have a great deal of potential but often their lives have been blighted by their earlier experiences. They have low self-esteem and, because they have not achieved very much at school, they believe they are 'thick' and not worth very much. They have poor social skills, short attention spans and can often hardly read or write.

You cannot even begin to teach them anything until you have built up a relationship. You have to break down the barriers, gain their trust and then you can start to work with them. The most important thing is to respect them and their culture, however it might conflict with your own values. I must never judge my students or their backgrounds, but I have to try to understand them. A girl or boy who has spent a great deal of their childhood throwing a quilt over their drink-sodden, vomit-covered mother or father on the kitchen floor might seek comfort in an inappropriate relationship because it provides even a tiny amount of relief from their normal circumstances. They might move from sexual partner to sexual partner from an early age because they get a small amount of attention for a small amount of time and they think so little of themselves that their reputation and persoanl safety hardly even matter. They live for the moment.

That is why I firmly believe that these sexually active and promiscuous young people are worthy of protection.

Often, but not always, they are damaged from an early age and we should all be looking out for them.

Thanks again.

Julie

[GimmeTheSoddingChoc]

How many times do I have to say it? I'm not a bloody troll!

well if that's the case why don't you openly disclose your previous chocolate forum identity (or is that identities?) with us right now? go on. prove you're not a troll. i'm not asking for a real name or anything so what's the big deal?

OK, if that's what it takes. My old forum name was netbuddy and, if I remember, controversial stuff was a bit of a no-no even back when I joined. I'm glad I've started a real full bloodied conversation, though 

[GimmeTheSoddingChoc]

What about a hypothetical 'We Need to talk about Kevin' scenario? Unrelated to the Saville thing, would it not theoretically be possible for a teenage girl to be a homicidal sociopath and an older man to be completely innocent? Arguably more likely to happen the other way round, but not impossible. And I have known at least one girl (not myself) who on a number of occasions got boys drunk/on drugs and took advantage of them to the fullest extent. And both her and the boys were underage at the time, so the question of age was irrelevant.  I remember how sorry me and my friends felt for the guys, having to perform such an act with the girl in question (seriously, she wasn't much to look at and her personality did nothing to redeem her).

 I am not condoning anything, nor excusing anything. As I said, all situations and people are different and each situation must be judged on its own specific circumstances, attributes and aspects. Snap judgments must not be made on quick and immediate stereotypes alone.

OK, what about this hypothetical situation.

It's 1976 and a 14 year old girl goes to see her pop idols in concert with a group of friends. With a bit of flirting, she persuades a doorman to get her and a mate backstage after the show to meet their idols. They can't beleive their luck when they are invited back to the idols' hotel.

Back at the hotel, the 14 year old 'gets off' (as they used to say) with her idol. They kiss and cuddle and she believes she's falling completely in love. She consents to sex and they 'make love' (in her words).  Afterwards, her idol tells her 'wait there love, i won't be long' He returns with the doorman who got them a back stage pass. The doorman strips off. 'What's going on?' asks the girl. 'Come on love' her idol says 'you've got to be nice to the man who allowed us to meet'. The girl is horrified 'no way!' cries. 'Please darling, be nice to him for me.' and he leaves the gril alone with the doorman who gets his way. Later, her idol returns and 'makes love' to her again. He then reunites her with her friend who has had sex with another member of the band and a roadie under similar circumstances. 

The girls are taken home by taxi. They are quiet. They are both upset. Weeks later, they talk to each other about their horrible experience and vow to keep quiet. They feel dirty and ashamed.

In another town, the process is repeated with a dozen more girls.  The 'idols' laugh together about all 'candy' they are getting. One of the roadies, a slightly older man, expresses concern. 'You want to be careful lads. You're going to get yourselves into trouble. Some of these girls are just little kids'

'Give over mate!' says one of the idols. 'They're gagging for it!'

Seriously, though, this hypothetical situation is a bit of an extreme one. Most groupies would get it on with their idol and go home with a smile! The idol portrayed here is a bit of a powermonger like Savile.

[oldspice]

What about a hypothetical 'We Need to talk about Kevin' scenario? Unrelated to the Saville thing, would it not theoretically be possible for a teenage girl to be a homicidal sociopath and an older man to be completely innocent? Arguably more likely to happen the other way round, but not impossible. And I have known at least one girl (not myself) who on a number of occasions got boys drunk/on drugs and took advantage of them to the fullest extent. And both her and the boys were underage at the time, so the question of age was irrelevant.  I remember how sorry me and my friends felt for the guys, having to perform such an act with the girl in question (seriously, she wasn't much to look at and her personality did nothing to redeem her).

 I am not condoning anything, nor excusing anything. As I said, all situations and people are different and each situation must be judged on its own specific circumstances, attributes and aspects. Snap judgments must not be made on quick and immediate stereotypes alone.

OK, what about this hypothetical situation.

It's 1976 and a 14 year old girl goes to see her pop idols in concert with a group of friends. With a bit of flirting, she persuades a doorman to get her and a mate backstage after the show to meet their idols. They can't beleive their luck when they are invited back to the idols' hotel.

Back at the hotel, the 14 year old 'gets off' (as they used to say) with her idol. They kiss and cuddle and she believes she's falling completely in love. She consents to sex and they 'make love' (in her words).  Afterwards, her idol tells her 'wait there love, i won't be long' He returns with the doorman who got them a back stage pass. The doorman strips off. 'What's going on?' asks the girl. 'Come on love' her idol says 'you've got to be nice to the man who allowed us to meet'. The girl is horrified 'no way!' cries. 'Please darling, be nice to him for me.' and he leaves the gril alone with the doorman who gets his way. Later, her idol returns and 'makes love' to her again. He then reunites her with her friend who has had sex with another member of the band and a roadie under similar circumstances. 

The girls are taken home by taxi. They are quiet. They are both upset. Weeks later, they talk to each other about their horrible experience and vow to keep quiet. They feel dirty and ashamed.

In another town, the process is repeated with a dozen more girls.  The 'idols' laugh together about all 'candy' they are getting. One of the roadies, a slightly older man, expresses concern. 'You want to be careful lads. You're going to get yourselves into trouble. Some of these girls are just little kids'

'Give over mate!' says one of the idols. 'They're gagging for it!'

Seriously, though, this hypothetical situation is a bit of an extreme one. Most groupies would get it on with their idol and go home with a smile! The idol portrayed here is a bit of a powermonger like Savile.

I am assuming you don't have any daughters? 

If you do have, your words might come back to haunt you if she/they ever walk through the door aged 14 with a big smile on her/their face/faces.

[Scarlet_Salome]

I am assuming you don't have any daughters? 

If you do have, your words might come back to haunt you if she/they ever walk through the door aged 14 with a big smile on her/their face/faces.

Would most parents care that much? Aside from the fact that the reasons for something as generic as a big smile can be myriad, my mother never seems to be that bothered what I do in that regard, as long as I never do anything to hurt or harm others and I maintain certain rigorous social and academic standards.

[GimmeTheSoddingChoc]

I can completely understand how nerves are being jabbed with this whole discussion. No, I don't have any children, but I really don't see what that has to do with the situation. Does no kids equal no voice? I'm sure if I had children I would worry about them every hour of the day, as most, but not all, parents do.